WikiProject Food and drink      (Rated Project-Class)

Food portal This project page is within the scope of WikiProject Food and drink, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of food and drink articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. Project This page is not an article and does not require a rating on the quality scale. Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale. Food and drink task list: This list is transcluded from the to do list page, to edit it click here. Here are some tasks you can do for WikiProject Food and drink: Help bring these Top Importance articles currently B Status or below up to GA status: Food, Bread, Beef, Curry, Drink, Soy sauce, Sushi, Yoghurt, Agaricus bisporus (i.e. mushroom) Bring these Top Importance articles currently at GA status up to FA status: , Italian cuisine, Cuisine of the Thirteen Colonies, Coffee, Milk, Pasta, French cuisine Bring these High Importance articles currently at GA status up to FA status: Burger King Participate in project-related deletion discussions. Get rid of Trivia sections in articles you are working on. Add the {{WikiProject Food and drink}} banner to food and drink related articles to help bring them to members attention. It could encourage new members to the project too. For a complete list of banners for WikiProject Food and drink and its child projects, click here. Provide photographs and images for Category:Wikipedia requested photographs of food Review articles currently up for GA status: Burger King legal issues, Chocolate

Archives

(June 2003 - April 30,2007) (May 1, 2007 - Oct. 31, 2007) (Nov. 1, 2007 - Nov. 30, 2007) (Dec. 1, 2007 - Dec. 31, 2007) (Jan. 1, 2008 - Apr. 30, 2008) {May 2008 - July 2008} {August 1 2008 - August 31 2008}

Pierogi (derelye) in Hungary

In the Hungary section of the article on Pierogi (derelye in Hungarian) we read: "Derelye is consumed primarily as a festive food for special occasions such as weddings. It was brought to Hungary by the merchant Andras Perl for his wedding with his wife Katalin in 1764. The Banki family, Katalin`s family, was so moved by the pierogi that now, pierogi are common at most Hungarian weddings." This unverified piece is a gradual development of the text originally added on June 7, 2006: [1]. The original text is a verbatim reproduction of the section on Hungary on pieroguys.com. This is the only place on the web where I can find Andras Perl and Katalin Banki in the pierogi (derelye) context (other than that they figure as co-authors in respectable scientific articles). Does anyone have any insights on (a) derelye being used as a wedding dish and (b) on the piece of folklore about Andras Perl and Katalin Banki in the 18th century? If not, I am inclined to delete this whole story and leave only the dry food facts about derelye. Please discuss below. --Zlerman (talk) 14:45, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

• In the absence of any response from the community, the unverifiable statements were taken out on 23 September 2008. A less conspicuous statement on the role of derelye as festive food remains in the Hungary section of the article on Pierogi and still requires verification: any help will be appreciated. --Zlerman (talk) 01:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Pin Cherry as drink

There are a number of things I found you can do with the Pin Cherry, and I found when I was a high school student and not of real drinking age at the time, made wine. Living on a farm in Wisconsin, we had wild pin cherry and choke cherry trees grew along road sides near where I lived. A neighbor kid and I made wine from these two types of small wild cherries. Each one made a unique and flavorful wine. Both types of wines would be a joy for anyone to drink. If anyone has a hobby of homemade wine making, and have pin cherry trees growing nearby, I happily suggest that you give wine making of the pin cherry a try. Try the choke the cherry too. Bobbyr54 (talk) 19:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Does Physalis philadelphica = Physalis ioxocarpa as stated under Tomatillo and Physalis?

The articles on "Physalis" and the article on "Tomatillo- Physalis philadelphica" state Physalis ixocarpa and Physalis philadelphica are the same species. This is the first I've heard of this, all my books say the Tomatillo is Physalis ixocarpa while Physalis philadelphica is a somewhat less culinarily important species usually called Purple Ground Cherry or at times Wild Tomatillo (e.g.,Oxford Companion to Food-Davidson). While Tomatillo fruit (P.ioxocarpa) can be eaten unripe, I don't know if Wild Tomatillo(P.philadelphica) can be. There's a remote chance the difference could matter safety-wise.

Perhaps cross-pollination is possible hence the confusion.

(I am an enthusiastic amateur interested in unusual food, not a qualfied expert).

210.54.229.129 (talk) 01:45, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Purée Mongole

This article is a joke, surely? Abc30 (talk) 02:44, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The article is unsourced, may be unverifiable by reliable sources, and the dish may not be a notable one, but "Purée Mongole" as a pea-tomato soup is referred to in a number of sources, including the New York Times. --MCB (talk) 06:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

It was a poor article with crappy prose and inappropriate tone, but the soup is real. I cleaned it up a little and referenced it. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 07:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Samosa, samsa, and so forth

There are three articles on en:Wiki dealing with what appears to be essentially the same dish: Samosa, Sambusac (Sambusak), and Sambousa. The Central Asian samsa and somsa are both redirected to Samosa, but somsa is not mentioned at all in this article, while samsa is mentioned in one sentence in the "History" section, without devoting any space to the culinary characteristics of samsa (as distinct from the samosa). Any suggestions about how to streamline all this? --Zlerman (talk) 07:33, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Like the setar and sitar, cognates don't always prove it's the same item, especially if they're from different cultures/languages. See also jiaozi, gyoza, and mandu. Badagnani (talk) 07:36, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

• Thank you for these observations, but in practical terms, what do you suggest we do with samsa/somsa vis a vis samosa? Leave the redirect as is? Add content on samsa/somsa in samosa? Create a new article for samsa/somsa? --Zlerman (talk) 08:06, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the samsa and somsa. What are these, in which cuisines are they traditional, and how are they similar or different from the well known Indian samosa? Badagnani (talk) 08:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

We've got a very similar situation at Naqara, Naqareh, Nagara (Drum), Naker, and Kudüm. Badagnani (talk) 08:16, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I guess this means that I need to examine more closely the cultural and culinary characteristics of the various pasties and decide if the Central Asian samsa/somsa (Kazakh and Uzbek cuisines) continue to share the same bed with the Indian samosa or get a new article of their own. Thanks for your advice. --Zlerman (talk) 08:22, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you, like the East Asian dumplings, or the Middle Eastern kettledrums which I mention above, that the samosa/sambusa/samsa, etc. are probably closely related, if not identical. There's no hard and fast way of doing this, but I'd lean toward separate articles if they're from different cuisines and different in recipe, size, shape, etc., of course with clear "See alsos" at each to let readers know about the others in the family. Badagnani (talk) 08:30, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Then you may have another variety found in east africa, where african and arab cuisine clash. And now of course also Indian and possibly other central asian cuisine is very common. (As in Sambousic,Samosa etc). --Shieldfire (talk) 17:44, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there's an Ethiopian one, which I eat sometimes when I eat out at Ethiopian restaurants. Badagnani (talk) 19:41, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Wrong tag???

I see that the Wiki Food/drink has been tagged to http://en.wikipedia.orgE_n_c_p_d_Special:Categories.html?title=Talk:Methylisothiazolinone&action=edit. Methylisothiazolone is not used in food or drink so I am supposing the tag is in error. Fact123 (talk) 20:31, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

In an automated process, someone added tags for this wikiproject to all articles in Category:Preservatives even if they are not used as food preservatives. I've gone through and removed the tag from a dozen or so inappropiately tagged articles, but if anyone wants to double check me, please feel free. -- Ed (Edgar181) 19:42, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Food and drink

Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.

We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations.

A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.

We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 22:42, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Squash (drink) needs your help

Squash (drink) has no cites and seems to be mostly a collection of personal observations and opinions. Has been tagged "needs additional citations for verification" since June 2008. Can anybody improve this? -- 201.53.7.16 (talk) 03:57, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Featured sound

Save A Little Dram For Me

Prohibition era song by Skidmore--Walker, sung by Duke Rogers, recorded by Thomas Edison's studio, 1922. Duration 3:29.

Hi, dropping by with some good news that relates to your project: a prohibition-era drinking song was recently promoted to featured sound. Best, Durova^Charge! 18:57, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Crested Guineafowl

Hi, I think the crested guineafowl article has been wrongly tagged as a member of the food an drink category. The sole fact that an animal can be eaten is not enough to be added to this category, is it? So I suggest the tag to be removed.

Thanks, eboy (talk) 13:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Pending GA Delisting

The Hershey Company, an article within this project's scope, is currently undergoing a GAR for potential delisting due to it no longer meeting GA criteria 1-3 (well written, well referenced, and comprehensive). See Talk:The Hershey Company#GA Reassessment for the full breakdown. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 17:42, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Source material

Food and drink is admittedly not a sector of Wikipedia that I have edited before, but as an amateur cook and a Spaniard I have had a keen interest in taking paella all the way through a FAC. The major issue is finding reliable references for information on the food's history (otherwise, there are plenty of published sources on paella) - the reliability issue is a huge issue through FAC. I wanted to check here if anybody knew of any websites which have passed the "reliability test" on Wikipedia. Thanks! JonCatalán^(Talk) 07:27, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Great! We always need F&D FAs (it's infuriatingly the least represented topic at WP:FA)! I'm afraid I don't really know much about reliable sources for this kind of article, but you can try looking at the refs used by the other F&D FAs or asking at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. It looks like paella is a food that has a lot of cultural importance, so you can try consulting websites and books about traditional Spanish foods. I'm afraid I can't be of much use in this aspect, but good luck! I'd be more than happy to help with copyediting when the time comes! Cheers, Intothewoods29 (talk) 22:09, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I generally trust texts more than websites for sourcing research. The only viable websites for such research would have to be one written by a food anthropologist or sociologist that is noteworthy in their research. Otherwise you risk using sources from biased and non credible sources. the only other type of website I trust is a government sponsored website which Spain may have.--Chef Tanner (talk) 18:30, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm trying to look over cooking books that I can find, but almost none mention anything about the history of paella and if they do it's a small blurb - hardly enough to write a FA-class article on the subject. Unfortunately, I no longer live in Spain so it's hard for me to search for sources in what would be the best place to do it (a Spanish book store). JonCatalán^(Talk) 18:35, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Some websites that you might try could be the Food Network and... hmm.. I can't find anything else. I'll look online some more when I have time. I'm afraid I don't have a lot of access to a lot of cookbooks. Cheers, Intothewoods29 (talk) 20:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Casu Marzu

Hey, David Fuchs wants to work on the article Casu marzu in preparation for April Fool's Day 2009. Anyone want to help? He's done some research, and it's a B-class article already. If no one wants to, I'll take the project on, even though I already have a couple of projects going. :) Intothewoods29 (talk) 21:45, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Persil, Persil Power and Persil Service - Wrong tag

The above articles had the WP:Food and Drink banner, which I've now removed and replaced with WP:Business & Economics banner on Persil Power and Persil Service, Persil already had the WP:Business & Economics banner. Kathleen.wright5 10:59, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Food additives etc. ==> need merging.

As I wrote at Food supplements, Talk: "We have, at least,

• Food supplements,
• Food additive,
• Food fortification,
• Dietary supplement,
• Food processing,
• Nutraceutical, and
• Nutrification (aka food enrichment). Surely some of these can disappear, and the small amounts of unique information can be moved to the remaining articles."

Added to list:

• Bodybuilding supplement

This is not exactly up my alley (I just find the situation annoying) so I hope someone feels the call. Such a discussion needs a central place, rather than bits spread to all the applicable talk pages. I hope that this thread will serve the purpose and I'll be leaving notes to that effect on those pages. Thanks, --Hordaland (talk) 12:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, 'twas my intention to start a discussion here. But it started on user talk pages, and I'll copy some of it here:

Hi. In regards to the merging of all the articles you mentioned on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Food and drink, do you mean to merge them all into one article? If so, which one, and what information needs to be kept? I can work on it, if that's what consensus determines. :) Intothewoods29 (talk)

I'd doubt that one would be enough. But the number we have (was it eight?) is just too many. One certainly wouldn't want to start arguments; the bodybuilders may want to keep doing their thing. Perhaps, ideally, there could be one with the overview and definitions, with spin-offs as deemed necessary. What do you think? --Hordaland (talk)

Well, it looks like Food fortification, Food supplements, and Nutrification could be put into Dietary supplement as subsections or incorporated into the article. I'm wary of getting rid of Food additive, Food processing, Nutraceutical, and Bodybuilding supplement because they seem like different ideas (and bodybuilding supplement is already pretty well cited). Let's see if anyone else comments on this. :) Intothewoods29 (talk)

--Hordaland (talk) 00:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Looks to me as if Nutrification defines itself as Food fortification, so why isn't the material over there? Then Food fortification has a merge box suggesting that it be merged with Food supplements, while Food supplements has a merge box suggesting that it be merged with Dietary supplement. We playing musical chairs here?

It sounds to me as though fortification is an Food additive (one among others) which is added by the Food processing industry, while the usual idea of a Dietary supplement is a vitamin or herb or whatever bought as pills in a bottle? And Nutraceutical sounds like much the same thing as Dietary supplements. While at Nutraceutical I discovered yet another article about a similar topic: Functional food, aka Medicinal food.

I don't know the solution, but there needs be some sort of index with definitions somewhere, methinks. --Hordaland (talk) 00:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I support Hordaland here. There's a lot of duplicated and semi-duplicated material in these articles that would undoubtedly benefit from some judicious merging and trimming.Vitaminman (talk) 09:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I favor merging Food fortification, Food supplements, and Nutrification which all involve adding ingredients to food. Dietary supplement is a bit distinct because it usually involves stand-alone products, but perhaps this could be merged too. The other topics, food additive, bodybuilding supplements, food processing, and nutraceutical, I think should remain separate. Deli nk (talk) 10:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Jeff Henderson

Hi, I just created a stub article for this chef, but I don't have time to expand it. If someone could help out, that would be great! Izzy007 Talk 22:39, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Few ?s: New Project & Templates

Does anyone here think it worthwhile to create a project or taskforce or whatever focused on people in the F&B industry? namely - chefs, winemakers, etc...etc...??? I think it would be good to split them off as those people will have a following whereas things like rubarb and knife are very different topics. Think of it like a "team specific" topic like the Wikipedia:WikiProject Boston Red Sox within the Wikiproject baseball. Also, i think the templates could use improvement... for example: Nobu Matsuhisa current restaurant list does not present information as effectively as it could/should. 71.56.118.64 (talk) 07:27, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Food service taskforce --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 07:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Paella article

You may want to keep an eye on this article. It seems to be having an edit war with one of the condtibutors having two seperate accounts (three total) that are being used to edit. Another editor just placed a POV tag on the article. Shinerunner (talk) 16:36, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

wrong tag

the Cordyceps page has been tagged as food and drink, as I can't see this as accurate, I'm taking the tag off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keithonearth (talk • contribs) 06:10, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

McCoys

Currently three articles on the same product, located at McCoys and McCoys Crisps and The Real McCoy's. As I'm not a member of this WikiProject I don't know which one should be the correct article, so though I'd let the professionals decide. Regards, GiantSnowman 17:39, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I created a merge discussion for the three articles, please feel free to participate. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 22:13, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

First conclusion after perusing the three articles: The Real McCoy's is a verbatim copy of McCoys Crisps. I am redirecting The Real McCoy to McCoys Crisps as a first (hopefully undisputed) step. I have decided to redirect "The Real McCoy" rather than the other way around because it seems to me that readers are more likely to search for "McCoys" or "McCoys Crisps" than "The Real McCoy" as a food item. If I am wrong, the final title can be changed in the end as nothing is being actually deleted. --Zlerman (talk) 05:13, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Second step: the information from the short article McCoys has been incorporated into the longer McCoys Crisps and an appropriate redirect McCoys==>McCoys Crisps has been added. It seems to me that we now need to decide if the final name should be McCoys or McCoys Crisps. I do not like "McCoys", because this name is used by many companies outside the food business (just try Googling for "McCoys" or "McCoy's"), so "McCoys Crisps" seems to be more appropriate for our purposes. However, the United Biscuits brand is called "McCoy's" on their web site, so that the word "crisps" is generic, and not part of the brand name. If we stay with "McCoys Crisps" we should eventually move it to "McCoys crisps" (with lower-case c in "crisps"). This seems to me the real point that needs to be discussed now (in addition to further editing and fine-tuning of McCoys Crisps). I wouldn't bother with the apostrophe in McCoy's and keep out apostrophe-free form McCoys. --Zlerman (talk) 06:13, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

• I should stress that the original text of the two redirected articles (McCoys and The Real McCoy's) has been hidden, not deleted. It can be viewed in full by pressing "edit this page" on the two redirect pages. --Zlerman (talk) 06:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

It's gonna be a DYK Halloween

The gang at DYK has started a subproject to generate DYK to be posted during October 31, 2008. The subproject/task force is at Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Halloween 2008 and twenty-four or so DYK articles (six per DYK Main page change) may fill up the four October 31, 2008 DYK Main Page posts. Food/candy plays a significant role at Halloween, so please feel free to contribute your talents to the efforts. Thanks. -- Suntag ¤ 16:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Modern entremets

I've been polishing up entremet the past few weeks, but I only have information on the medieval aspects of this dish. If anyone knows more about the development of the term from around 1500 and onwards, it would make a nice addition to the article. If you don't have the time to add info yourselves, I'd appreciate hints on sources that I could use to expand the article myself.

Peter ^Isotalo 11:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Saying hello

I hope all is well with the project. I have been really busy, I was recently recognized as a culinary judge with the American Culinary Federation in the last issue of their national magazine. I also took gold in a recent culinary competition with the ACF. I've also been working on a new class at my college called Modern Culinary Trends and Techniques which would fit right up the alley of many of you here in the project. Three weeks of healthy cooking techniques, one month of Asian cuisines, one month of Latin American cuisines, a week of Molecular Gastronomy and week of adapting comfort foods for the 21st cetunry fine-dining restaruant. Still trying to write my thesis as well, taking longer than it should. I hope to be back soon to help out with the project, until then happy editing.--Chef Tanner (talk) 00:31, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Project template looks broken

As discussed at Template talk:WikiProject Food and drink, the talk page template for this project is displaying "tan-space" above and below, as at Talk:Tim Horton and is cluttering up talk pages with its size. Hopefully someone will fix soon. Franamax (talk) 19:45, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I just looked at it and do not see anything like you describe. What browser are you using? I tested it with the Five major browsers and it looked perfectly normal to me. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 19:56, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Same conclusion here: looks OK in Talk:Tim Horton, Talk:Piti (food), Talk:Chuchvara, and others. I am using Mozilla Firefox 3.0.3. --Zlerman (talk) 01:46, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Tim Hortons

Tim Hortons has been nominated for a good article reassessment. Articles are typically reviewed for one week. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to good article quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status will be removed from the article. Reviewers' concerns are here. Ruslik (talk) 09:12, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Sisal is not a food or drink

Sisal has been tagged as food or drink - not so, it is a coarse fibre used for making sacks, ropes, etc. There is an obtuse connection - tequila is made from a related plant - but not from sisal. Natural fibre (talk) 21:37, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

• Fixed. :) Intothewoods29 (talk) 22:37, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Introduction Statements

At the end of the introduction:

"Professional artisans of cooking are called chefs, while prep staff and line cooks prepare food items in a more systematic and less artistic fashion."

I find this to be a very misleading statement.

In a professional kitchen the chef has many duties and frequently find himself/herself unable to participate in much of the cooking action. Their duties are staffing, schedule, buying, dealing with suppliers, working with the budget, planning the menu, etc...

We all start at the most base level in a kitchen learning with experience and/or education.

There is no reason why a line cook or prep staff is not involved in the final presentation and often in my experience most cooks are directly involved with 'artistic fashion.' When people are introduced to culinary arts in an institution there is always a consciousness about color, presentation, height, flavor, portion control, etc... Making all cooks 'professional artisans.'

Dromepixie (talk) 13:57, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

What are you referring to?--Chef Tanner (talk) 14:55, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

It should be edited. I'm trying to figure out how to phrase a new sentence that can achieve the same function whilst being more clear about the reality of the modern brigade. Dromepixie (talk) 15:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

What article are you referring to?--Chef Tanner (talk) 18:34, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

"Yes, We Have No Bananas" is a song, not a food

Just because it contains a food word, it doesn't mean it's food. This tagging has made the article so much less useful. Jonsilver (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

It was categorized because it one time had a cat that referenced food. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 01:21, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

• Inappropriate banner removed. Can someone suggest an appropriate WikiProject for this article? --Zlerman (talk) 01:41, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. Put the Wikiproject Songs template on the article's discussion page. Intothewoods29 (talk) 02:33, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Merger of soutzoukos and churchkhela

I have proposed merging soutzoukos and churchkhela, two names for a confection consisting of strings of nuts dipped in thickened grape must and forming a sausage-like shape. Other editors have objected, preferring to have one article per local name/variant. I'd appreciate the input of other experienced food-and-drink editors on Talk:Soutzoukos and Talk:Churchkhela. Thanks, --macrakis (talk) 23:21, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the problem is that for a merged article there needs to be a main article with different sub-types. In this case their are two regional variants. So what would be the parent article be? Would you merge to soutzoukos or churchkhela, and why? If there were an article about strings of nuts dipped in grape confections, then a merge would be more practical. That's my two cents. IN any event, both articles leave room for improvement. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:32, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The lack of a unique English name for a topic should not preclude merger if the topics are substantially the same. Compare for example a kind of pan-Ottoman tripe soup called iskembe çorbasi (Turkish), pats?? (Greek), shkembe chorba (South Slavic). Hmm, I see that someone has created Shkembe chorba as a separate article, which is ridiculous; the content is the same, down to its use as a hangover remedy! --macrakis (talk) 06:59, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

So maybe this is a losing battle? Please examine the reality on the ground -- the actual practice on Wikipedia, in this project and also in other areas. I keep seeing this kind of thing all the time, and merging one little article will not solve the system-wide problem. Perhaps this is how people want Wikipedia to be. Perhaps this freedom of "silly duplication" is what makes electronic Wikipedia unique to users. --Zlerman (talk) 07:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

If you want to change Wikipedia policy on content forking, you'll have to make the argument there, not here. For now, Wikipedia policy is to merge articles covering substantially the same topic. I think it would be hard to maintain that soutzoukos and churchkhela are not substantially the same topic: a confection of strings of nuts covered with thickened grape must. Of course, if there are systematic local or regional differences, they can perfectly well be documented. --macrakis (talk) 13:43, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Please do not put words into my mouth: I do not want to change any policies. I am just being pragmatic. In any event, let's keep the discussion going (both here and on Talk:Churchkhela) and see what kind of a consensus emerges. --Zlerman (talk) 14:18, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

"Ice cream milk"

Here is a message from a new user that was inadvertently (?) posted on the project page:

• k4er5 iam looking for ice cream milk reciepe can anyone help me i do not want to know how to make ice cream i want to make ice cream milk. signature added User:k4er5 (talk) 17:19, 25 November 2008.

I hope this is not a bogus message and I am doing the right thing by reposting it to the talk page... --Zlerman (talk) 18:01, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

It probably exists. I've heard of ice cream and ice milk, but I don't know what ice cream milk is. Some kind of shake or malt? Hmmm...ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:46, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

From the ice milk article: "In the United States, the term (ice milk) is now virtually unknown. A 1994 change in Food and Drug Administration rules allowed ice milk to be labeled as low-fat ice cream.[1] Within months, the term "ice milk" virtually disappeared from store shelves." Ice milk appears to be ice cream made with low-fat milk. Maybe someone else knows how the recipe would differ? ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:49, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

As a side note I have had excellent ice cream made with coconut milk and agave sweetener. The recipe is popular among vegans and health foodies who don't like to eat refined white sugar and people who avoid dairy products.ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:51, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Food and drink vs. cuisine

Hello everyone, I'd like to address an issue that I have attempt to bring up in the past but have not heard a reply to. This issue is of particular interest to me because of my extensive research and work with a variety of cuisines. A cuisine has a distinct set of guidelines that is set by a number of cultural and physical constructs. There are a number of articles entitled cuisines, such as Cuisine of New York City, Cuisine of the Northeastern United States, Cuisine of Philadelphia etc that are not cuisines, but are articles on the food and drink of those regions. I would like to submit that these articles should be retitled Food and drink of New York City, Food and drink of the Northeastern United States, Food and drink of Philadelphia, etc. These places do not have a cuisine, they are missing the larger constructs of a codified culinary practice, education of the culinary constructs, a sociological basis that the entire region cooks in one cooking style over the areas just happening to have cities such as Cuisine of New York City that have a variety of cooking styles within the area. I'd love to open this up for debate. A country can have a cuisine, a city does not have a cuisine nor does a region of a country.--Chef Tanner (talk) 19:40, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

But there is indeed a style of "New York City" and "Philadelphia", and the title of "food and drink" is not succinct than "cuisine". --Caspian blue 19:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

This is a question that does not have a succinct answer.

Certain cities do have a cuisine associated with them, but not all. Examples:

• St. Louis, Missouri - St. Louis has a distinct cuisine style associated with beef and barbecue. In the US St. Louis style cuisine is a distinct cooking style with its own set of flavors and cooking methods that set it aside from other styles found in other regions.
• Los Angeles, California - It is the regional home of California Cuisine which born there.
• Paris, France - Paris has a distinct subset of French Cuisine, as seen in the movie Ratatouille which exemplified the culture and style of Parisian cuisine. Hong Kong and Beijing style cuisines also are specific subsets of Chinese cuisine that could be called cuisines unto themselves.

Now some cities are famous for certain dishes, and that is what I think you are pointing out. EG New York is famous for its pizza and Manhattan clam chowder, Chicago for its deep dish pizza and Philadelphia has its Philly cheese steak but these are not cuisines per say. These dishes do not make a civic or regional cuisine., Like most modern US cities, these cities feature a mixture of cultures and cuisines from across the globe.

The Cuisine of the Northeastern United States article is proper because of the gastronomic history of the region as you put forth in your Cuisine of the Thirteen Colonies article. The Northeast US does have its own particular set of traditions and dishes that makes it unique. The Cuisine of New York City article isn't an article at all but a list of the various multinational cuisines found in NYC and probably should be called List of cuisines in New York City, while the Cuisine of Philadelphia article is an historical article covering its unique dishes and its restaurants. We could possibly rename it History of food in Philadelphia.

I hope that muddies the water for you. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 20:52, 26

November 2008 (UTC)

I would actually argue that my article Cuisine of the Thirteen Colonies should be changed to Food and drink of the Thirteen Colonies. I only named it as such based upon the accepted nomenclature of the current standards of Wikipedia. Priscilla Parkhurst Ferguson identified a widely accepted model of a cuisine in her book Accounting for Taste: The Triumph of French Cuisine [2]. The four portions of the model include the Creation, done through the chef or cook, those of whom are the people who would design and prepare the food. Yes there are chefs in a city or region that prepare food, but the model states that there would be people who would identify with cooking the cookery of that region, is there a chef in Philadelphia that cooks that style of cookery only... realize that cheese steak or the like is not a style of cookery, it is a dish. But we do have chefs, and one "might" argue that there are chefs that create dishes based on the region, so I will allow that quadrant.

Production is a second quadrant, (kitchen, restaurant, and home). I'm from upstate New York, and I have lived in NYC and a number of other cities declared on Wikipedia as having a cuisine. Read the NYC cuisine article, it has nothing to do with a cuisine, but rather has to do with a number of regions of the city, with no homogeneity. Yes there are restaurants, food carts, and what not, but they are not a united in ideals, they just cook based on what is popular, not on what is know as a culinary standard.

Diffusion (codified cookbooks, magazine articles, novels, essays), a search on Amazon.com for Philadelphia cuisine finds nothing [3] that states a codified cuisine of the region. Please continue through all of the cities and states of the country, the books don't exist unless you goto New Orleans, one of the few actual cuisines we have in this country, Cajun/Creole. Codification is a singular significance to a cuisine, if people don't know what the dishes are in a succinct manner, then there are no dishes for that cuisine. There also needs to be more than one or two dishes.

Consumption is the last step of the model. This is based on the reader-consumer, or diner-consumer. In the USA, up until the last couple years, we had the Zagat guide and the AAA dining guide, both driven by the common-reader's opinion and vote. Other cultures and newly the USA, have the Michelin Guide which utlizes well trained guided critiques who advize the public on dining on a cuisine. Philadephia may have a newspare that advices on where to eat, but what is their critera? Is it established, or is it on the whime of the current editor of that column? That is not a standard, that is the current "fad".

This is an academically based model which has been accepted enmass. I myself am updating this model for my thesis, but until now this is one of the best accepted models I found in the industry. I do now argue that each city and region can have a number of dishes that they are known for, but that does not mean that those dishes make a cuisine, they are just part of the food poriton of the "food and drink" found in the region. In conclusion, I argue that the majority of the cuisine articles that are not named after a country should be renamed "Food and drink of ..."--Chef Tanner (talk) 00:07, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

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A radical change in scope is being proposed for this article. Would someone please take a look at the article and talk, and add an opinion? —Michael Z. 2008-12-04 17:09 z

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