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A7 needs to be changed back

Recently I was quite surprised to find out that A7 now *does* have to do with "notability."

For a very long time, A7 said "This is distinct from questions of notability, verifiability and reliability of sources." It appears that A7 was changed in April after this thread about Ingo Dammer-Smith.

It looks like on April 9, 2008, Taemyr changed A7. Iain99 commented here saying he didn't think those changes were an improvement, and suggested a new wording. Then Taemyr said he liked "Ians wording" and then Taemyr changed A7.

I disagree with Taemyr's alteration of A7.

I propose to change A7 back to this version from April 15. So instead of..

An article about a real person, organization (band, club, company, etc.), or web content that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant. This is distinct from questions of verifiability and reliability of sources, and is a lower standard than notability; to avoid speedy deletion an article does not have to prove that its subject is notable, just give a reasonable indication of why it might be notable. A7 applies only to articles about web content or articles on people and organizations themselves, not articles on their books, albums, software and so on. Other article types, including school articles, are not eligible for deletion by this criterion. If controversial, as with schools, list the article at articles for deletion instead.

..A7 will read..

An article about a real person, organization (band, club, company, etc.), or web content that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant. This is distinct from questions of notability, verifiability and reliability of sources. A7 applies only to articles about web content or articles on people and organizations themselves, not articles on their books, albums, software and so on. Other article types are not eligible for deletion by this criterion. If controversial, as with schools, list the article at Articles for deletion instead.

Thoughts? --Pixelface (talk) 04:19, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

In a DRV discussion, (Ironically one I filed for my own AFD close) I once got called for using the phrase "asserts notability" when removing a speedy tag. I had to point out this "new" wording to the editor and tell him that I was using it because "asserts notability" is shorter then "asserts importance or significance". After that, I started using "IoS asserted" when removing A7s. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 14:11, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I suggested that change because I wanted the wording to stress that the hurdle for A7 is lower than those imposed by any of our vague, contradictory and often contentious notability guidelines. In my experience (please don't ask for diffs - I don't have time to go trawling for them right now) there are now numerous new page patrollers (and probably admins) who don't know the history of the clause (which was basically brought in to allow "Joe Bloggs is a teenager at Somewhere High School" to be dealt with quickly) and use it to tag anything which doesn't meet their own strict interpretation of WP:BIO or whatever. Worse, I'd seen it asserted by someone who was not a complete newbie (sorry, again I don't have time to dig out the diff) that A7 required articles on people, bands or companies to meet a higher standard than notability; that they had to meet the relevant notability guideline and meet some additional "importance" criterion on top of that or be speedily deleted. Hence my attempt to clarify it. I'm open to suggestions on further improvements, but I think they should maintain the sense that it's a lower bar than any given interpretation of WP:BIO etc. I also don't really think there's much to be gained from maintaining the fiction that A7 has nothing whatsoever to do with notability; clearly it does, given that "notable" means much the same as "important or significant" (though I know we're supposed to pretend that it doesn't). Iain99^{Balderdash and piffle} 19:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this change as it makes it clear that "IoS" is a lower bar then "notability". However, the drawback is that when someone uses phrases like "assertion of notability", it's no longer clear on whether or not the editor using the phrase knows the difference between "IoS" and "notability". This may be important for some discussions such as RFAs. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 14:25, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

The main point of CSD is to deal with things that are likely to be uncontroversial at XfD. Interpretation of whether something is notable is indeed controversial, and as such should not be reflected in a CSD criteria. - jc37 14:19, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think making it clear that it's easier to be considered "important or significant" than "notable" really changes anything about how A7 should work, and really that's the way it should work. There should be things that aren't notable, but still aren't A7 material. There shouldn't be things that are notable but are A7 material. The current text does state that pretty well, by calling it a "lower standard than notability". I'd guess most of the objection is actually to the next bit, and removing it should make everyone happy. So, is

An article about a real person, organization (band, club, company, etc.), or web content that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant. This is distinct from questions of verifiability and reliability of sources, and is a lower standard than notability. A7 applies only to articles about web content or articles on people and organizations themselves, not articles on their books, albums, software and so on. Other article types, including school articles, are not eligible for deletion by this criterion. If controversial, as with schools, list the article at articles for deletion instead.

acceptable text? lifebaka++ 16:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Looks fine to me. But, just to briefly touch on this, A9 was created for a good reason but numerous articles about a musical release, for example, simply state "This album/demo/single/mp3/whatever was released by this band" (or the slight variation "This is the first/second/third whatever released") followed by a track listing. Is there, or was there, a reason as to why this type of article can not fall under A7 as well? Or is it implied that, as long as there is a parent article on the creator of the subject, it has inherited notability and "their books, albums, software and so on" are exempt from A7? Soundvisions1 (talk) 17:11, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Mostly the objection was that there would have been too many false positives. There are plenty of album articles out there that only have their own articles because otherwise the artist page would get too big, and we wouldn't be able to find them all to put {{go away}} on them (besides that the template is more useful the less it's used). Basically, the possibility of false positives was too high for people to like until we came the current wording of A9, though they wanted something. The threads that lead to it are here, here, and here. Cheers. lifebaka++ 18:06, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Also, such articles can (and should) be changed to a redirect to the artist if notability isn't asserted. When there is no artist article to redirect to, then a speedy makes sense. --Fabrictramp | talk to me 18:21, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Looks okay. I still don't see what's wrong with "This is distinct from questions of notability, verifiability and reliability of sources" though. That could even read "This is unrelated to questions of notability, verifiability and reliability of sources" Maybe the sentence "This is distinct from questions of verifiability and reliability of sources, and is a lower standard than notability" would make those who think A7 required people to be more than notable think otherwise, maybe not, I don't know.

The problem I have with the current A7 is that before, articles about persons/organizations/web content did not have to "give a reasonable indication of why it might be notable" to avoid speedy deletion, but now they do — because A7 was changed. CSD is a policy, so when the policy is changed to say "just give a reasonable indication of why it might be notable", editors will look at the "vague, contradictory and often contentious notability guidelines" because Wikipedia still, to this day, lacks a decent article about notability. Articles do not have to prove the subject is notable to avoid speedy deletion. Articles also do not have to give a reasonable indication of why the topic might be notable to avoid speedy deletion. As far as I can tell, A7 was added to CSD after this proposal, and "notable" was not in it. --Pixelface (talk) 09:56, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I also fail to see why schools should be specifically excluded, they are an organization and need to assert significance like any other. A7 has traditionally excluded "products", but I also fail to see why that should be—an article on a (book|album|what have you) that does not assert notability should be gone as fast as "John Foo is a freshman at Bar High School and is really cool" or "The Baz is a band which will be releasing its demo tape next year". To take this to its logical conclusion, we could use A7 to remove said article on The Baz, but not Demo Tape (The Baz), which seems rather patently ridiculous. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 10:11, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I am comfortable with the text proposed by lifebaka above. I join with Seraphimblade in wondering about some of the exclusions. However I do understand that schools have long been a contentious issue within the community and the thinking on their inherent notability changes often. I guess it is for that reason - the controversey surrounding them - that they are best sent to AFD. JodyB _talk 11:52, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

While I agree when it comes to products/creative works/etc., it would be very difficult to get the community at large to accept extending A7 beyond where it currently is. It's exactly for that reason that we have the current A9 for musical recordings. It would be far easier to extend it instead of A7 to encompass products and other creative works. JodyB is correct for why schools are excluded from A7. AfD is nearly always a better choice for schools. Cheers. lifebaka++ 14:43, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

This discussion is timely in that I was just saying to someone that I have concerns with the wording of A7 and would like to see about them being revisited. My chief concern is with the basis being "assertion". Does anyone think that people's time should be wasted with a full AfD review of articles about pet parakeets reading, "My parakeet Pauline is known around the world for the tricks she can do! LOL!"? That defeats the purpose of speedy deletion. I think that a useful criterion for speedy deletion would be that an article lacks information that (a) can't be discounted outright or with minimal research and (b) if true, would inherently imply notability or would be adequate to support at least the possibility that the topic is notable (or important or significant—I'm not involving myself in that aspect of the discussion). So, for example, the article on Pauline the Parakeet still couldn't be speedily deleted (at least, not for A7) if it also said, "I was invited to bring her on the Tonight Show after they learned that I bring her to hospital for sick children countrywide to entertain them," because that sentence, whether or not the author has provided a reliable source for it, would, if true, support the possibility that Pauline has achieved sufficient note. But the bald assertion that Pauline is widely known wouldn't bar A7. —Largo Plazo (talk) 17:21, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

That would also mean extending A7 to animals. And your example is an A1 (although I'd still pipe it through google, it's possible that there is exactly one famous parakeet with that first name).
Nevertheless, I personally do require a somewhat credible assertion of significance. "My pal Joey is the king of the world" is certainly not credible. I'm not sure any article ending with "LOL!" can contain a credible assertion. I would however be very hesitant to water A7 down with subjective parameters. I'm not seeing that many persons, organizations or web contents with blatantly unbelievable claims of significance at AfD, I'm thinking that many are caught by PROD, since no PROD patroller would decline that, which only leaves the author. --Amalthea^Talk 17:57, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Granted, in my haste to create a scenario I chose a pet. Pretend I wrote "sister" instead of "parakeet". ;-P Anyway, the guideline doesn't say anything about "credible", and that would be no less subjective than my suggestion. I'm reacting to having been surprised several times by admins who've said "asserts notability" when there was nothing credible about the alleged assertion. But on the other hand if there was a more substantive indication of notability, some information from which notability could be inferred, then it seems reasonable to me to bar use of A7. —Largo Plazo (talk) 18:50, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm hesitant to explicitly state that claims need to be credible in the criterion itself, to deliberately keep the bar low (I don't want to encourage people to tag articles that are simply unsourced), but your suggestions are certainly worth discussion. I take it you want something along the lines of

A7. An article that does not give any credible claims which, if true, would assume notability.

Or something similar along the same lines, at least; my wording is far from ideal. This pretty well goes with the way I try to interpret A7 myself, though I generally give the benefit of the doubt as to whether or not a claim is itself credible (blanket assertions of "blah is important" aren't, usually). Also, your modified example is quite amusing. Cheers. lifebaka++ 19:23, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, notability mustn't be a part of it, this would raise the bar significantly. If anything then a "credible indication of importantance or significance" should still be enough to get it past speedy deletion.
But I would definitely not want to change it. The reason why I said above that I personally require a credible claim is because my subjective interpretation of credibility is the correct one of course. ;-) Discounting certain blatantly incredible claims makes sense and has always been done, but if we really put it into the criterion like that then I'm sure we'd find many "I don't believe this"-tags erring on the side of deletion, which is not what we want. Maybe require a "remotely credible" assertion, to just discount the blatantly incredible stuff.
To get back to your example, "My sister Pauline Doe is known around the world for her many tricks, lol!" is blatantly incredible. If it says "My sister Paline Doe is known around the world for her skill on the trampoline" or some other random specific trick then to me it's no longer blatantly incredible and I'd want it to go through PROD, but I'm sure many CSD taggers would disagree and tag it an "A7 no credible claim of importance". --Amalthea^Talk 19:53, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

From an article that hopefully soon will be deleted.

J-Filly

J-Filly is one of the most important people in the world today. He has contributed a lot to the Myspace world, being a friend of Tom, the creator of Myspace. Many people do not know that he is Tom's right hand man. He has over 300,000 friends on Myspace, which is incredible. The people that he has added often describe him as cute, hot, and gorgeous. His pictures show him having blue eyes and blond hair. In school, he is often hit on a lot by the ladies. The women look at him and treat him with such respect. He tries to give it back, but sometimes it doesn't work.

The editor who tagged it A7 didn't buy it. Creator must have been reading this thread. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 02:50, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

• Definitely an A7. That assertion of significance is about as good as being the worlds leading nose-picker. --Amalthea^Talk 03:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
  • And yet A7 as written today (it doesn't include "does assert notability but you think the assertion is ridiculous") fails to cover this article. I suspect that everyone here would consider that outcome ridiculous, so it follows that A7 needs to be changed. —Largo Plazo (talk) 13:14, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
    • I think "ridiculous" assertions are pretty well covered by the words "reasonable indication." --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:18, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
      • Well, there's just the thing. You're looking at the part that says "An article about a real person, organization (band, club, company, etc.), or web content that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant. ... to avoid speedy deletion an article does not have to prove that its subject is notable, just give a reasonable indication of why it might be notable." I think that's fairly consistent with my earlier ruminations. Note that it says nothing about assertions at all. It's concerned with the article itself containing some indication of why the topic might be notable. But some of us are looking at the part later on that says, "Articles that seem to have obviously non-notable subjects are only eligible for speedy deletion if the article does not assert the importance or significance of its subject." Out of the blue this obliterates the threshold set by the indication criterion and dumbs it down to an assertion criterion. I think this needs to go away. Failing that, the two passages need to be mutually conformed somehow. —Largo Plazo (talk) 15:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
        • If I'm understanding you correctly, it seems that

          An article about a real person, organization (band, club, company, etc.), or web content that does not reasonably indicate why its subject is important or significant. This is distinct from questions of verifiability and reliability of sources, and is a lower standard than notability. A7 applies only to articles about web content or articles on people and organizations themselves, not articles on their books, albums, software and so on. Other article types, including school articles, are not eligible for deletion by this criterion. If controversial, as with schools, list the article at articles for deletion instead.

          (change from above proposal bolded) Would be fine, right? Cheers. lifebaka++ 16:03, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
          • As long as the later passage, ""Articles that seem to have obviously non-notable subjects are only eligible for speedy deletion if the article does not assert the importance or significance of its subject," is still there, it will continue to undermine the earlier passage no matter how it's rewritten. —Largo Plazo (talk) 16:13, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
            • Is there indication that people are hesitating to tag or delete A7 articles with unreasonable indications of importance? That might help determine how much restructuring may be necessary. I haven't been doing as much CSDing lately because I've been volunteering my time elsewhere on Wikipedia, but my observations suggest people are happy to tag articles even if they think the indication of importance or significance is slightly dubious. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 18:49, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
              • I can assure you they aren't hesitating one bit. Got an ambassador to Russia tagged a couple of weeks ago. :) --Fabrictramp | talk to me 19:22, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
                • As I said when I entered this thread, I'm frustrated because I can flag an article that has no genuine indication of notability, the speedies have been rejected because there was an assertion of notability (and, to the admin in such a case, the issue of assertion is the only one considered; and since the guideline says nothing about the need for an assertion to be reasonable, I have no basis for arguing with the admin that the speedy should be reinstated on the grounds that the assertion is unreasonable). As I've now pointed out, the latter passage undermines the former passage. Is there a sense that Wikipedia guideline should be confusing, should have parts that contradict and undermine each other, and should result in disagreements between users, not because they really disagree with each other but because the guideline to which each is referring disagrees with itself? I note that in trying to state my position, you used the phrase "unreasonable indications of importance". The part I'm saying is a problem is the part about assertions, not the part about indications. They are two different things, and that is why the two parts of the guideline are mutually incompatible. —Largo Plazo (talk) 19:50, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
                  • Hmm. Though you seem to be taking about WP:CSD#A7, are you actually questioning the language under Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Non-criteria? The word "assertion" doesn't appear anywhere in A7. If your beef is with non-criteria, wouldn't a simple solution be to add the word "reasonably" before "assert"? --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 01:18, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
                    • Well, OK. I realize now that I'm conflating something that isn't A7 with A7 and talking about both, and it's the non-A7 passage that is undermining A7. I'm also realizing that part of my problem in recognizing my confused approach to this is that the tool tips for Twinkle describe A7 in terms of assertion. So there's a problem in the overall article, even if it isn't the text in A7 that needs revision (and I apologize for that confusion) AND AzaToth should change the tool tips on Twinkle to reflect A7. (Or perhaps AzaToth's text is intentional: maybe he worded the tips so that they reflect the necessary consequence of hobbling A7 with the bit about assertions.) —Largo Plazo (talk) 01:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
                      • Please read Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion/Proposal/1 and its discussion page. Uncle G (talk) 14:57, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

?How about this:

That brings the language more inline with A7. (Currently it says "if the article does not assert the importance or significance of its subject.") --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:34, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• I would move "only" to sit in front of "if", but other than that I think that would be a useful way of stating it. —Largo Plazo (talk) 15:43, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
• The reason it reads that way is that that was the original A7 wording. See Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion/Proposal/1 and its discussion page. Uncle G (talk) 14:57, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

New "i12"?

Is there a reason why images left behind from deleted articles or uploaded by SPA's trying to promote their own project can not be CSD'd? For example I just went through and did an IfD nom for each image that was upped by Nevermindthelove (I suspect related to Special:Contributions/76.112.179.112) who, clearly, was only here to try and insert his name into articles such as Grammy Award for Best Male R&B Vocal Performance (dif) and My Destiny (dif). We have an A9 for article about a musical recording that "has never existed or has been deleted", why not have something similar for images? Soundvisions1 (talk) 20:26, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Are you coming across them frequently enough to warrant a CSD criterion? If it's blatant promotion or blatantly incorrect it can be G11ed or G3ed already. --Amalthea^Talk 21:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

As I go through images almost every day I am finding them everyday. (Also articles are being deleted every day as well) And I am only going through the "Self-published work" images. In the example above if is pretty obvious where as some are not so much. Lots of band promos, logos, production stills, movie posters, "cd covers" and lots of misc little things such as icon sized images that seem to be a throw back to the early days of the internet. And to be clear I am not talking about obvious unused shots of, say, the latest Jewel CD cover or an used movie still from "Wall-e". I have done a few G11'a but, as has been discussed here concerning articles, it has to be pretty blatant. An unused promo shot from a non-notable bands failed attempt at getting an article is not really a G11. And I have only done one G3 because it was very blatant. Many of the current image CSD's come close, but not quite. For example a CD cover really should be under fair use, and if it was unused it could be i5'd but take a look at the example user I gave above. These were all "self made" and none were claimed under fair use, so if I had tagged them all i5 the overseeing admin would have declined the request. The same could be said for a self made movie poster, promo shot, production still and even frame grabs. I suppose G8 could apply here as it covers "Pages dependent on a non-existent or deleted page" but if that is used doesn't that open up the entire "The article just wasn't created yet" argument? I am open to using that, I just never have. Feedback welcome. (Edit: I tagged a few images with a G8 so we will see how that goes.)Soundvisions1 (talk) 23:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

If they're not free content, they can be deleted under I5 (after the time limit is up). If they are listed as free content, and you think they aren't, use the {{npd}} tag. If they're free, we oughta' keep 'em around and move 'em to commons. Extreme cases (which require immediate deletion) should fall under other criteria, and if they don't there's still good old {{db}}. That should cover all the possibilities. Cheers. lifebaka++ 04:33, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I have to laugh at that last one - This page may meet Wikipedia’s criteria for speedy deletion, but no reason has been given for why it qualifies. Yeah, that seems like to would cover anything. I also wanted to re-state that I am only talking about images that are in the Self-published work category. I know many images are put there to bypass copyright issues and because the uploader really does not get that grabbing an image form myspace is wrong, and I am not talking about those obvious cases where a tag such as {{di-no permission}} or {{db-imgcopyvio}} will work. For example there is Image:Noir Pictures Logo.jpg and it was tagged, first, by myself on November 12 under CSD i3 as the uploader/creator/copyright holder clearly states it is to only be used on Wikipedia. Another editor came along and removed the CSD tag explaining that Wikipedia can claim fair use no matter what the creator/copyright holder stated and added a fair use tag and rationale. The parent article was deleted on November 21 so I added a CSD i5 but than, after thinking about it, and the discussion here, I changed it to a G8. Another editor now has added the {{di-orphaned fair use}} tag and the problem I see with this is, first, the wording of "This image or media is unlicensed for use on Wikipedia..." which is just the opposite of what the creator/copyright holder has said which is "I have personally designed this logo myself and fully approve of its use on wikipedia, but I do not approve of its use anywhere else online or otherwise without my direct authority or supervision." The only reason the editor added the {{di-orphaned fair use}} is because of the earlier CSD denial where another editor added FUR to the image. This is why I think something specific is needed in these "orphan/unused image" cases. While I can understand the idea behind the "if they're free, we oughta' keep 'em around and move 'em to commons" comment I feel that is too broad of a statement. Going back to Nevermindthelove's images does anyone think they should be all kept and moved to Commons? It is a legit quesiton, I am not being sarcastic. In cases such as that and such as the, now orphaned, Noir logo, rather than saying "Well you could use this, if it is that, or you might be able to use that one as long as it were that..." we could just say something along the lines of "Unused images categorized as "Self-published work", and licensed under CCL or GFDL, that do not indicate why the subject is important or significant, that are not used in any articles, or where the article has never existed or has been deleted. Reasonable exceptions may be made for images uploaded for an upcoming article. This excludes any image which is useful to the project, and in particular any image pages or talk pages for images that exist on Wikimedia Commons." I also think this would cut way down on the IfD noms that are done, not only by myself, but by others. Soundvisions1 (talk) 14:25, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

{{db}} is meant to be taken with a parameter, specifying why the page needs to be deleted ({{db|reason}}). The documentation could be a little clearer on this.
It's true that not all free images should be kept and sent to Commons, but that really shouldn't be a CSD-type decision. Those deletions should really go through IFD instead.
Wording of the templates is secondary to the wording of the criterion they use. I5 applies to all orphaned non-free files, including those where permission is given for use only on Wikipedia. It seems to me that, overall, a new criterion isn't needed because all the reasonable cases where it would be used are covered by other criteria or aren't places where any CSD should be used. Please see bullet four in the box at the top of this page. Cheers. lifebaka++ 19:04, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

As I cited a few specific examples I wish someone would respond directly to those as it would help in understanding why these can not be CSD'd, of it they can under what existing CSD they can be. I have said that I find these types of images every day (user created/user uploaded images in the "Self-published work" category that are either unused, never used, or orphaned) and I just send to IfD and want to understand why they can not be CSD'd. I can keep sending them to IfD, no issues, but it just seemed it would be better to have a way to speedy images, such as the ones I gave examples of, using the exact same concept as why A9 was created. I would like to respond to the comment of "I5 applies to all orphaned non-free files, including those where permission is given for use only on Wikipedia." I am not asking about non-free files, I thought I had made that clear. If you are referring to the Noir logo you may have misread why I was citing it/asking about it - this is a "user created" image that was uploaded for use only on Wikipedia, it was not a logo that was taken from, say, the Warner Bros official website for use in an article about the company and is no longer being used. This image only got tagged with a FUR, "non-free" use, because an editor objected to my "for Wikipedia use only" based CSD. Also I may be misreading "Non-commercial only and By Permission Only Images to be deleted - May 19, 2005" which says "As of today, all *new* images which are "non commercial only" and "with permission only" should be deleted on sight." I don't see where any form of image is excluded from that and I also may be misunderstanding what "deleted on sight" means in relationship to CSD i3. Likewise "Clearing up Wikimedia's media licensing policies - February 8, 2007" says "It is for these reasons, which we have long supported, that all media on Wikimedia sites which are used under terms that specify non-commercial use only, no-derivatives only, or permission for Wikimedia only, need to be be phased out and replaced with media that does not have these restrictions." and I see no mention of excluding a user created image that says it can only be used on Wikipedia from being speedied under CSD i3. Please tell me if I misread something in those two policy setting emails/posts.

And I did read the list on the top of the page and I am not sure why I was asked to read that other than perhaps the "redundant" issue, but almost all the CSD's are somewhat redundant to each other. For example i9 and G12 could be easily rolled into one. G1, A3 and i2 could all be rolled into one. Certainly A9 could be have been incorporated into A7 or G8. Please do not get me wrong here, I am not saying it is bad to have subject specific CSD's, I think it is a very good thing. I am just trying to point out that we have a specific CSD for musical recordings that points out that if it "does not indicate why its subject is important or significant and where the artist's article has never existed or has been deleted" it can be speedied. We have a CSD for overall articles that, if they do "not indicate why its subject is important or significant", can be speedied. We have a general CSD that includes "image pages" and says if they exist "without a corresponding image" the page can be deleted. What we don't have is anything that is specific to an image that is unused, do not indicate why the subject is important or significant or orphaned because the parent article has been deleted. Likewise we are very specific that "Wikipedia is not" a "myspace" type of social networking site but there is nothing specific to Wikipedia being a personal image hosting service. I have come across more than one image that is only being used in the uploaders own personal photo gallery and no where else. I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that if a personal photo gallery, such as User:Wellus/Photo/2007, was deleted than so should the images that would be orphaned by it's deletion. Thanks. Soundvisions1 (talk) 20:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Apologies. I didn't make it clear that they can be deleted, we just don't need a new criterion to do it with, because current criteria are capable without any modification. You also make a very good point about other apparently-redundant criteria, I'll start some threads below about combining them (except for A9 into A7; the only reason we got that through at all was because it's separate). Cheers. lifebaka++ 03:56, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Following up a bit. I found several images orphaned when article were deleted. I tagged them with various tags that fit including G6 and G8 with the reasoning they are orphaned images from deleted articles, and in one, case G11. Some of the images have have been re-tagged and sent to IfD saying orphaned images can not be CSD'd. (ok, to be fair the exact words used were "Not speedyable") and some have been CSD'd. I have asked the editor(s) to voice their opinion(s) on the issue here. (For reference: Image:Breakinupcd.JPG and Image:BL Rochester Book Signins.jpg were sent to IFD but Image:Breakinupsingle.jpg and Image:BU Single.jpg were CSD'd, but my G6/G8 tags were changed to i5 even though they were not uploaded as a non-free image. Image:Promo.jpg was CSD'd as G11.) Soundvisions1 (talk) 16:14, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I've been ruminating on this for a bit, as I run across many, many of them. Of course they can go through IfD - but many times these images touch on the 'fringe' of other categories - such as I5 (as the two mentioned above (which you'll see below could have been G6/G8) - if they're "legit" album covers, the owner should be the record company or other entity & not the uploader); a good number are I3 & I4 & I11. What I'd like to see for this very specific type of image that's being discussed is that the G6 (as part of "non-controversial maintenance") can be "expanded" to include this - that images used in articles that are deleted (speedy, Afd, whatever) that are not used elsewhere be considered as part-and-parcel of the deletion of the article & are deleted. It's sort of akin to to making an G8 for images (images used on a deleted page...) Of course, we can just rely upon IAR ;) - but that's probably not the best way to go! Skier Dude (talk) 00:34, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

That would work. Ok, how about this: (Changes/additions in green)

G6 - Technical deletions. Non-controversial maintenance, such as temporarily deleting a page to merge page histories, deleting dated maintenance categories, deleting images categorized as "Self-published work" that do not indicate why the subject is important or significant, that are not used in any articles, or where the article has never existed or has been deleted or performing uncontroversial page moves.

It may be a bit wordy but it needs to be explicit that the only type of images eligible under this would be unused and orphaned images that are in the "Self-published work" category. Soundvisions1 (talk) 15:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Images are not my major thing, but I do wonder how an image can indicate why the subject is important or significant. Grabbing a few at random (some from commons, but they could as easily be here), how would this apply to Image:Spiders.jpg, Image:Ecl-ann.jpg, Image:Billy.png, Image:Mary's Slide 2007.JPG, Image:Ceeiling fan.JPG & Image:Jeff halper.jpg? I'm not saying that all or any of these should necessarily be deleted under this proposal, but I'd like to see thinking on how they should or should not apply. That might help refine language. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 19:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

See my examples above. The ones you gave are generic enough they can be sent to commons if they were orphaned, maybe not "important or significant" but usable as, say, stock images. A better quesiton would be what is the difference between Image:Ceeiling fan.JPG and Image:Breakinupsingle.jpg or Image:AndreDeJuanFace.JPG and how best to word it. Maybe "Encyclopedic content"? Soundvisions1 (talk) 19:41, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

That seems like a good direction: why the subject is of encyclopedic importance or significance. All of the images above are orphaned, though the only one on Wikipedia is Image:Billy.png. It's an unused portrait of a Wikipedia contributor. (I stumbled upon it by popping in generic terms: I figured Image:Billy was likely to bring something. :)) Such images are not encyclopedic, and it has never been used in any article. If user portraits are to be excluded from your proposal, that should probably be specifically excepted. What about other user images used (or not) in user space? --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 19:52, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

?I do not think user space "user portraits" should be excluded and if they are unused and/or orphaned and they are not encyclopedic. The image Becky5.jpg (along with three like images) was just orphaned and is a user page image. The Bhati.png user image is another user portrait that, if it were orphaned, would not have much encyclopedic use.

Proposal

How about this: (Changes/additions in red)

• G6 - Technical deletions. Non-controversial maintenance, such as temporarily deleting a page to merge page histories, deleting dated maintenance categories, deleting images categorized as "Self-published work" where the parent article has never existed or has been deleted and that are non-encyclopedic, or performing uncontroversial page moves.

I have been experimenting with the {{db}} tag per lifebaka's suggestion along with the reason of "Orphaned image from "deleted article". (See CSD G6 or G8)" which sort or works but I think Skier Dude hit the nail on the head with their suggestion. Soundvisions1 (talk) 15:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Further Discussion

That reads okay to me. Have you publicized this suggestion elsewhere? It can help get enough participants to reach consensus. :) A good location might be WT:IUP or even WT:IFD. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:39, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Done. Thanks. Soundvisions1 (talk) 15:55, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• I came here from the post at WT:IFD, read the proposal, and thought "WTF does that mean?" After reading the above discussion, I'm still not quite sure. It seems the original discussion was to address images uploaded for self-promotion that don't quite meet WP:CSD#G11, but then it changed to address orphaned "unencyclopedic" images in general. I don't really see the point of the latter (that's what WP:IFD is for, and IFD gives anyone who cares a chance to find a use), and if the former is really a problem perhaps G11 should just be clarified with respect to orphaned images. Anomie? 18:02, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• reply: This discussion (and proposal) is/was not solely about "images uploaded for self-promotion" at all. It is/was about any user created image that is orphaned, or otherwise un-used, that is "blatant" in it's unencyclopedic-ness. Questions were asked, examples of images given, and over the course of the discussion this has gone from a new CSD concept to simply adding wording to an existing CSD. There are many examples given above and as G11 only deals with "Blatant advertising" it does not cover all user created images that turn up at IfD. And G11 is already used for images that fall under that criteria. Images can still be sent to IFD if there is a question about them being encyclopedic but this would prevent, for example, the "becky" images that were orphaned when the user page for Girl-Fix-Er , was deleted from being sent to IfD. Soundvisions1 (talk) 18:47, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• To avoid using the word unencyclopedic, I suggest changing the proposal to read something along the lines of "...and that cannot be used in another article." WODUP 20:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• reply/question: We use "unencyclopedic" for describing images already, why would it be different in this case? Soundvisions1 (talk) 20:39, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

<facepalms because it doesn't say unencyclopedic> I think that whether or not something is encyclopedic is more subjective than if something can be used in another article. WODUP 02:41, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I am dense right now I guess. You said "To avoid using the word unencyclopedic..." In the comment I thought you were replying to I said "...that is "blatant" in it's unencyclopedic-ness" and "Images can still be sent to IFD if there is a question about them being encyclopedic..." but now you say "facepalms because it doesn't say 'unencyclopedic'". Or are you suggesting to just remove the word "unencyclopedic" from all the existing criteria, tags, guidelines, policy and so on? I would be against that as the word is as common here as "notability" is. Take a random look at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2008 November 16 and see how many images are listed as "Unencyclopedic" as part of their IfD description/reason. Soundvisions1 (talk) 04:10, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh, no, no. I facepalmed because my first post was to avoid the word unencyclopedic, but that word isn't used in the proposal, non-encyclopedic is. I goofed. I'm not suggesting to remove the word from where it already exists in criteria, etc., but with this proposal, I just think that the meaning is more clear when it's replaced with wording that mentions the image's ability to be used in another article. WODUP 04:30, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I still don't believe that any changes are necessary, but if we really want them I'd highly suggest making the adjustment to G8 instead of G6. G6 is for technical uses of the deletion tool, nothing else. Deleting any page, except to merge histories or similar (the common cases are listed in G6 already), under G6 is simply not acceptable. The nature of the proposed addition is more in line with G8 than with G6. Cheers. lifebaka++ 20:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• reply:G6 or G8 makes not matter to me as I think either of them basically fit now, and G6 was the suggestion above so I went with that. If there is consensus for adding to G8 instead cool beans by me. Soundvisions1 (talk) 20:39, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I9 is redundant to G12

The title pretty much says it all. Is there any reason we need both, or should they be merged? Cheers. lifebaka++ 03:58, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Go for it! I9 is redundant. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 06:20, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd be interested in seeing the language for the merger. They both are fairly complex little nuggets as it is. :) Do you just propose to move the instructions from I9 into G12? How will the tags work? Will there be an "image" {{db-g12}} and a "text" one? --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 17:34, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I would likely support a merged version as well, but it's a tough one to accomplish in practice. If you do manage a merged criterion text, I would definitely suggest keeping separate deletion tags for images and text. — Gavia immer (talk) 18:25, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure, do it. But I want to say that, even though I am the one who brought this up as an example, I don't, overall, see a problem with it. Now if it is merged I propose a clean up of the overall wording. Sometimes the "general" nature is a bit more confusing. For example the policy on image use says "Images which are listed as for non-commercial use only, by permission, or which restrict derivatives are unsuitable for Wikipedia and will be deleted on sight, unless they are used under fair use" as well as "Licenses which restrict the use of the media to non-profit or educational purposes only (i.e. noncommercial use only), or are given permission to only appear on Wikipedia, are not free enough for Wikipedia's usages or goals and will be deleted" but in both cases it is in regards to user-created images. How this applies to I9/G12 is, as one example, I am finding flickr images being uploaded here under a free license when the original is under a "all right reserved" or a "non commercial use" license.

Beyond that CSD G12 states "Text pages that contain copyrighted material with no credible assertion of public domain, fair use, or a free license, where there is no non-infringing content on the page worth saving" and i9 sates "Images that are claimed by the uploader to be images with free licenses when this is obviously not the case." As currently written it is clear that an image from flickr that is not "public domain, fair use, or a free license" should fall under i9. But when these are combined how does one decide if an image is "worth saving"? A text copyvio can be fixed by changing the text, but an image can not be "fixed" so easily if it is a copyvio.

Ironically I came across an old IfD that relates: IfD on Ian brown 001.jpg. I have seen this scenario play out, where editors go into an image page and replace the tag with a "correct" one or otherwise "fix" the image. (In this case by cutting out the website url and © tag) That part may be another issue for another policy page but it does relate to how we define "Blatant copyright infringement", at least in regards to images. If a website, or an image, contains a copyright notice of some sort that shows the image to not be "public domain, fair use, or a free license" than should the image, uploaded by anyone, be tagged as a copyvio? I think at face value, it should. It becomes a bit more complicated if the uploader is claiming to be the creator. As the IfD shows at least one editor feels "If they say all rights reserved and then upload it themselves then thats is up to them, what are they going to do sue themselves" and, as a photographer, I agree with that because I feel I have a right to allow my images to be used as I determine. However as a photographer I also say, and strongly believe, that, first, Wikipedia policy regarding license's is the policy and that if an image is a violation of that policy, it should be deleted, per the policy and, second, in the case of potential copyvios, I don't think the "assume good faith" argument overrides the real world law(s). I hope I am not making a mess of what I am trying to say.

How and image is licensed for sure ties into i9/G12 but, while, i3 deals with the "improper license" issue, it only does so in regards as to how it was uploaded to this site. And I get kind of miffed when an editor, who is not the uploader or author of an image, comes along and "fixes" an image under the "assume good faith" argument. Perhaps part if this is the use of i9/G12 seems to imply that the uploader knows it is a "blatant copyright", but in that case the actual tag being used becomes the issue, or at least the wording of it. Saying it is an "improper license" may work better at times because not all images that are copyvios are being uploaded that way on purpose and, on that level, I can see "assume good faith" being a valid point. But beyond that, the real world law is really the law, on, or off Wikipedia. I would hate, as would many editors, to see the Foundation release, for example, a book using an image that was either "fixed" by an editor or was saved from CSD deletion via the "assume good faith" argument only to be sued by the images creator because they never release it under a free use license.

In regards to the wording, at this second, I am not sure what the language should be in the combined CSD for i9/G12 but I feel it should reflect that a contradictory license can be considered a reason for inclusion in the copyvio CSD, even if it is the author of the article or image who uploaded it. (Currently i9 has, as an exception, "nor does it include images with a credible claim that the owner has released them under a Wikipedia-compatible free license." but this goes back to finding a source that says otherwise, which would include a website URL on the image) I also feel there should be something about imaged being uploaded "for" people who said it was ok. We have probably all seen wordings such as "Uploaded because the creator, who is sitting right here, is saying it is ok" or "I asked the webmaster and they said I could use it" This is what the OTRS is for (correct me if I am wrong). If something does not make sense let me know. Thanks Soundvisions1 (talk) 18:43, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I wanted to post a bit of a real time "update" to something that relates. As I suggested above about how editors try to "fix" possible copyvios here is a perfect example. I found Image:Arrows1974.jpg and tagged it a PUI because it seems to be a crop of a publicity photo and low quality. The uploader put in the summary "my photo of Arrows" and licensed it under PD. At the PUI another editor went ahead and CSD'd as a blatant copyvio but another editor requested it be restored and "fixed" the license as {{PD-Pre1978}}. I went ahead and reverted that editors licensing edit on the image and emailed the original photographer, who is well known in the world of music. (Another reason why I suspected this was a copyvio). I just heard back from the photographer and he said, in part, I do not contribute to Wikipedia and didn't upload any image of Arrows. There is no doubt that this image is my copyright as the original author and this is something I am quite clear about having taken legal advice from leading music business lawyers in the past. That is a perfect example of why editors should not try to "fix" images if they are suspected of being copyvios. Soundvisions1 (talk) 04:28, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I got an idea on how we could merge them all:

G12: Blatant copyright infringement: Any content that is a blatant infringement of copyright. Examples include pages that only consist of content copied from sources not licensed under the GFDL, with no non-infringing revisions in its history that can be restored, or images claimed to be freely licensed by the uploader, when a given source does not specify a free license, or it contains a watermark identifying someone who is not the uploader. This does not include images and text that can or will be used under a claim of fair use, nor does it include images with a credible claim that the owner has released them under a Wikipedia-compatible free license, or content which is in the public domain with a credible rationale declared for its status. For equivocal cases (such as where there is a dubious assertion of permission, or where free-content edits overlie the infringement), please consult Wikipedia:Copyright violations or Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images for images. If you have permission to use the content under a Wikipedia compatible license, please send evidence of a release to our OTRS system.

Like it? I added emphasis on the new parts. ViperSnake151 21:20, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I do. :) It's at least a very good start, though I think we should resolve one question I have, which results from an unresolved issue carried over. Dubious permission is not a matter for PUI anymore; it's a matter for its own speedy: DBI11. PUI does provide direction for how to handle dubious permission though. Is this already so dense with info that we should not complicate matters further, or should we avoid sending them to PUI to learn how to use another speedy? I also wonder if it would it be more comprehensible to n00bs if we subdivided into two bullet points, one for text and one for images? I can understand the above, but I don't know for sure if that's because I already understand the criteria. As a final point, instead of linking to OTRS, should we link to WP:Permissions? Opinions? --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 11:34, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

The "no permission" question is a concern of mine as well. i11 though seems to only apply if an image has a source listed that may not be the actual uploader. This is not always clear though. If there is a professional looking head shot of an Actor, for example, that says "I made this" under author it does not seem to fully fit i11 because the permission is implied by the uploader saying "I made this". But it may not be a G12/i9 issue either if we can not find an original source. Sending it to Pui, as I have shown, could lead to another editor trying to "fix" the image by editing the image or replacing the license. I would like to see the existing wording on the tag(s) changed and and workied into the Criteria. Two wordings: "If you created this page and or you disagree with its proposed speedy deletion, please add:" (from {{db-i11}}) and/or "If this page does not meet the criteria for speedy deletion, or you intend to fix it, please remove this notice, but do not remove this notice from pages that you have created yourself. If you created this page and you disagree with its proposed speedy deletion, please add:" (From {{db-i9}}) I am really not sure about the "intend to fix it" portion if it is a blatant copyvio however. That fits in better with the "di" tags where we allow a certain time to actually "fix it".

As for OTRS - we would need to make sure that wording was consistent. For example we say "Unless a link to a webpage with an explicit permission is provided, or an email from the copyright owner is sent or forwarded to permissions-en@wikimedia.org, the image will be deleted..." on the {{di-no permission}} tag but on the Wikipedia:Upload page clicking on "Entirely my own work" does not offer much in the way of options and there is no mention of OTRS. From what I have seen most image copyvios stem from use of the "Entirely my own work" uploads as the other upload options are clear in what is allowed. The "Uploading a file from someone else" page clearly states "If the copyright holder agrees to release the image under a free license such as the GFDL, please forward that letter to "permissions-en AT wikimedia DOT org" if it is not apparent from the source URL of the image. This ensures that the Wikipedia Foundation has a record of the license in case questions should arise at a later time."

I really think there needs to be some specific wording added along the lines of "If images whose permission is not apparent from the source URL of the image (if one is given) and is given as 'I asked and was told I could upload here', or whose author is listed but is not the uploader, than the copyright holder should send evidence to our OTRS system at "permissions-en AT wikimedia DOT org". This ensures that the Wikipedia Foundation has a record of the license in case questions should arise at a later time."

And the bullet ideas would be good. Soundvisions1 (talk) 16:15, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, for the dubious permission thing, let me try something:

I12: False claim of self-authorship. If an uploader has claimed an uploaded item to be self-made, but there are signs suggesting that the image may not have been created by the uploader and thus a copyright violation (such as a professional quality, staged shots, an angle that only press photographers could easily access for example, or later found on a copyrighted website with no evidence of a free license), they may be deleted 7 days after notification of the uploader if there is no evidence that the image was truly created by the uploader. If it is determined to be a blatant copyright violation, it may be deleted under criteria G12. If it is disputed by multiple parties, it is recommended that it be posted on possibly unfree images in order to reach a consensus. If you are truly the creator of the image, please send evidence to our OTRS system at "permissions-en AT wikimedia DOT org" in order for it to be logged

I also made a slight amendment to the "blatant copyvio" proposal above. ViperSnake151 20:35, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

The G12 proposal above seems good to me. I'm not too sure about the "dubious permission" one; in my experience, images with bogus permissions either get deleted without a peep from the uploader (so a detailed speedy criterion isn't needed), or else the uploader uses every avialable means to make deletion a baffling ordeal for all involved (in which case a detailed speedy criterion doesn't help). I'm aware that the current I11 is already pretty long, but I don't see a need to make it more detailed. — Gavia immer (talk) 15:19, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Change CSD A9

I think we schould expand CSD A9 to non-notable Movies, Books and computer games too. For example: This article: Det stinker fisk! cant be an CSD A9 but not an other criteria either. But it still of course need deletion. Why not? The Rolling Camel (talk) 23:32, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd recommend against putting books in a speedy category. Having worked on a number of AfD's for books, I can tell you that a number of sources need to be searched for notability, and most admins (most editors, too) aren't familiar with them. Heck, I'm not familiar with as many as I'd like to be. Having 5 days for research is a bigger benefit than the harm caused by having a vanity article stick around for a few extra days.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 23:47, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I recommend CSD a9 to be like this: An article about a book, movie, song, album ore computer game that dosent inicate why its subject is inportant or significant... The Rolling Camel (talk) 23:55, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

An extremely poor idea, though from time to time proposed--and always rejected. The justification for A9 for albums is that we can depend on the notability or lack of it of the artist as a basis for quick decisions. This is not present for any of the other types of material. For computer games, there is no equivalent. For movies, the responsibility is delete. For books, though one might think the author could be relied on, for older books, especially childrens' books, experience shows it cannot. My main experience here at such articles is with childrens' books. it frequently happens that a young person enters an article for a favorite book--and usually, they do not know how to do it well. The only way it can be recognized this might be a notable book is either if someone recognizes it, or if people actually checks carefully, and, to be frank, that step is almost always not done by the people nominating for speedy, and, alas, as admins, we don';t necessarily do it if the matter looks obvious or if we;'re being lazy or going to fast. We cant count of 2 people--or one single admin--recognizing it, because in practice people only recognize the childrens' books of their own generation. So ever week or so there are nominated for prod or afd some books that turn out to be really notable prize winners. They are there long enough that somebody sees them--5 days, not 5 minutes. DGG (talk) 00:14, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

But we cant take an homemade youtbe movie to Articles for deletion every time. The Rolling Camel (talk) 00:18, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

The youtube movie could be deleted under A7 as web content. And there's always prod. It's commonly assumed that prods will always be contested; my experience is that happens only about 25% of the time. (And when it does, I just copy/paste my prod reason into the AfD and add a comment about the prod being contested.)--Fabrictramp | talk to me 00:27, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

"CSD A9" doesn't say anything about "notability" except that it's not dependent on notability. This is a common mistake. --NE2 00:19, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

But as i said at the top, Why not? Why cant we take books and movies too. Otherwise i think we schould have an CSD A12 for non-notable books, movies or computergames. The Rolling Camel (talk) 09:50, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Because A9 is restricted to cases in which the musical work, like in A7, does not assert notability AND in which the artist has no article as well, the latter often overlooked in tagging. With books, movies and/or computer games, it is often possible for the subject to be notable even if the creator is not. So we should avoid such taggings and rather use PROD and AfD to deal with it. Regards SoWhy 11:08, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. A9 has been a success despite some skepticism--including mine--precisely because that part of the criterion. I provides a reliable check on inadvertent deletions of things that are in fact notable, tho not obviously so. There's no equivalent for other genres of work. DGG (talk) 03:35, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

U2 confusion

I edited criterion U2 to include IP addresses (i.e. users without WP accounts) as users who don’t exist. This was reverted with an explanation that this isn’t so and such users are permitted userpages. However, my IP address’s userpage was deleted under this criterion, so either I or the user who did so is a bit confused. What’s the actual rule? —76.110.173.70 (talk) 06:47, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

• I don't see an actual rule, but Wikipedia:Register strongly suggests that userpages are for registered users. It might be worth inviting the admins who have already tacitly weighed in on what they based their decisions, since they may know some rule or policy tucked somewhere that I didn't pick up. That would be User:B and User:MZMcBride, though you probably already know that. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 11:53, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
  • The wording of U2 hasn't change since it was deleted in February, FWIW. --Amalthea^Talk 12:12, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
• It's my understanding that due to the mostly dynamic nature of IP addresses, they generally do not have user pages. Certain parts of the wiki software even reflect this (page histories, Special:Contributions, etc.). Looking at the old page history of WP:CSD, I'm pretty sure the U2 criterion was written with IP user pages in mind. (Even today it clearly states that the user must be listed at ListUsers.) --MZMcBride (talk) 23:17, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Disagree. There are some static IPs contributing that are having userpages like normal users. Heck, there is an IP that was offered adminship! We cannot go around deleting their pages as U2 because that would be controversial. But CSD is only for uncontroversial deletions, so there can't be a criterion that allows controversial decisions. I might accept a wording like "and user pages for IPs that are dynamically allocated" though... Regards SoWhy 23:50, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

    So, was my correct? —76.110.173.70 (talk) 23:46, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

    • No, because we usually don't change the wording without discussion. SoWhy 23:50, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
    • Either way, it should be specified somewhere. If accountless users can have userpages, U2 should say something like, “not including IP addresses,” and it should be listed under non-criteria (and my userpage should be restored). —76.110.173.70 (